What Is Palestine to Africans?

An Interview with Fatima Hassan

By Mukoma Wa Ngugi

mrzine, November 12, 2008

Fatima Hassan, is a prominent South African human rights lawyer who was
part of a South African Human Rights Delegation that in early July
visited Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. The delegation
undertook the mission in order to: "support those, Palestinian and
Israeli, working daily, by non-violent means, to bring an end to the
post-1967 Israeli occupation, to end all human rights abuses and
breaches of international law, and to move towards peaceful relations
and a just settlement . . . to express solidarity with those who are
living in oppressive, restrictive and dangerous circumstances; and to
draw attention to the injustice of the occupation and its devastating
consequences." Mukoma Wa Ngugi interviewed Fatima Hassan on the
solidarity visit and the implications of the Palestinian struggle for
Africans.

MUKOMA WA NGUGI: Well, let's get straight to it: an Independent
newspaper article quotes you as saying, "The issue of separate roads,
[different registration] of cars driven by different nationalities, the
indignity of producing a permit any time a soldier asks for it, and of
waiting in long queues in the boiling sun at checkpoints just to enter
your own city, I think is worse than what we experienced during
apartheid." But the same article goes on to say that "Ms Hassan herself
said she thought the apartheid comparison was a potential 'red
herring'". Can you speak more about this?

FATIMA HASSAN: I think that the debate/discourse about whether this is
Apartheid or not is not helpful. Too often people get bogged down in
whether this IS Apartheid or not. And then use this as the measure of
whether the situation in Palestine and Israel is intolerable from a
legal and moral standpoint. Of course there are similarities in respect
of the indignity and inhumaneness of the consequences of the occupation.
And of course people in Palestine and Israel call the wall the
'apartheid wall' because it is premised on a policy of separation and
closure.

But the context is different and the debate on whether this is Apartheid
or not deflects from the real issue of occupation, encroachment of more
land, building of the wall and the indignity of the occupation and the
conduct of the military and police. I saw the checkpoint at Nablus, I
met with Palestinians in Hebron, I met the villagers who are against the
wall -- I met Israelis and Palestinians who have lost family members,
their land and homes. They have not lost hope though -- and they believe
in a joint struggle against the occupation and are willing in
non-violent means to transform the daily direct and indirect forms of
injustice and violence.

To sum up -- there is a transgression that is continuing unabated --
call it what you want, apartheid/separation/closure/security -- it
remains a transgression.

MWN: Can you speak about the Palestinians in the West Bank and living
under Israeli occupation? Are they struggling for inclusion and equal
rights within Israel or for a viable Palestinian state?

FH: I think I have realised that physically and geographically -- with
the massive encroachment of land -- that a 2 state solution may not be
realistic. But it is not for me to determine the solutions for people
who live there.

As for Palestinians, they stressed to us that they are against the
occupation, not against Israel or Jews, but against the occupation and
denial of human rights. What they want depends on who you speak to and
where they live. Of course, everyone we spoke to stressed inclusion,
dignity, autonomy.

MWN: Can South Africa serve as source of instruction to both
Palestinians and Israelis? In what ways?

FH: In some ways yes and in some ways perhaps not. In SA we agreed to
accept each other not as enemies but as people first , then we talked,
and still do. As Dennis Davis from our delegation commented -- 'they are
talking divorce whereas we (SA) talked marriage'. There are ways in
which we cannot be instructive because we have limited experience -- we
had invisible barriers and one road for everyone.

They have barriers, check points almost everywhere and different roads!
They have children stoning other children who are trying to go to school
(Hebron) -- we had Bantu education and a language forced on us but not
the scenarios we saw and heard of in Hebron.

We did not have deeply religious views and claims defining the injustice
and land grabs. In fact faith-based organisations mobilised against
apartheid. In SA we have some (limited) experience on race and dealing
with racism -- but not a racism rooted in religion.

MWN: Is there any instruction for the Palestinians in the South African
struggle against apartheid?

FH: International solidarity and exposure of injustice is critical. We
used several means to struggle -- international solidarity and
sanctions, limited armed struggle and mass moblisation. The Israeli and
Palestinian joint struggle is perhaps the best place for us to offer
solidarity as our struggle was also inclusive and mass-based.

MWN: Do South Africans have a special responsibility to Palestinians? Is
there historical solidarity between the PLO and the ANC?

FH: I think you have to ask the ANC about historical alliances. . . .
But of course they were historically linked.

I owe any community and people around the world solidarity if they face
injustice anywhere in the world or in my own country -- I owe it as a
human being, and as South African -- because they provided solidarity to
us during years of terrible race-based oppression. Yes we have a special
obligation to condemn and respond to injustice given our own shameful
history.

MWN: In the past African states have been very vocal in their support of
Palestinians. For example in the 1970s a number of African countries cut
diplomatic ties with Israel. What kind of actions can/should the present
generation of African leaders take?

MH: Several small steps first - - build a consensus and voice to condemn
oppression and injustice in Israel and elsewhere.

Ensure that companies that benefit from building the wall and benefit
from the occupation are not given business.

Ensure that they visit ordinary villagers and peace activists who are
engaging in joint non-violent struggles as opposed to only meeting
career politicians from one or other 'side'.

MWN: Did you get a sense of the ongoing struggle between Hamas and the
Fatah movement? What in your opinion is a constructive response from
Africans to this split?

FH: We only had 5 days of visits so this is impossible to answer
properly. When I went to several villages there were activists who were
originally part of both movements now working together to feed children,
educate them and provide humanitarian relief as well as working with
Israeli activists in a non-violent struggle.

MWN: What is the effect of the wall-barrier on prospects for peace and
on the Palestinians?

FT: On the wall, fence, separation barrier, I think it is the biggest
mistake and obstacle to peace -- its physical presence, its emphasis on
increased security, its ability to cut off people from their land,
schools, neighbours and homes and from Israelis and Jews, will not and
cannot make anyone think that peace is even on the negotiating table.

The parts of the wall that we saw, the many demolition orders that had
to be taken against parts of the fence/wall, show an absolute failure to
understand the livelihoods and lives of people on both sides of the wall
-- the wall has meant that thousands of Palestinians have lost access to
their land and livelihoods (about 250,000 are affected -- with 8,000
Palestinian families in the safety zone).

The wall cuts off neighbourhoods and to me only protects settlements --
might I add that that many of the settlements are actually illegal and
are considered illegal outposts. For it to work they have implemented
complex permit systems -- even a horse needs a permit to get across. It
really is a shame.

MWN: Do you see a one state or a two state solution? Considering that a
one state solution is not even on the table, and it does not seem that
Israel will allow for a viable independent and thriving Palestinian
state, how do you see one of the two solutions working?

FT: I cannot comment on the prospects because I visited for 5 days only
-- I do not believe that I can comment on solutions -- I went to learn.
Off course one must be hopeful for a single state based on human rights
for all with dignity and inclusion for all.

MWN: Finally, we never get to hear about Jewish/Palestinian solidarity
movements yet they exist. Can you speak more about this?

FH: There is a growing number of such movements -- they may be small and
'fringe' right now but I believe that their message is simple and
universal -- non-violence and inclusion of all people that make up
Israeli and Palestinian communities. They will grow in strength and with
our solidarity.

Combatants for Peace, Anarchists against the Wall, Breaking the Silence,
Bereaved Parents Families Forum are just some examples. . . . And the
Popular Committees in villages, Ta'ayush, Children of Abraham as well.

Their greatest strength right now is that they see everyone as human
beings in a common struggle for peace; their greatest threat is that
they talk about peace and human rights -- they often told us that the
greatest threat to removing barriers is fear -- I think they are right.
People are scared in Israel and Palestine -- they are scared of peace.
For more information on the solidarity visit,
<www.humanrightsdelegation.org>.

Mukoma Wa Ngugi is co-editor of Pambazuka News where this interview
first appeared.


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